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News on the Vine

Contribute to wikis!

Vodafone RnD has developed a new application that permits users to contribute to articles in wikis. You can view and edit articles, and also upload photos from your device. Try this application on Betavine and contribute to this open source project over at the Forge.

Betavine Sponsors BarCampBrighton3

The Betavine team will buying everyone dinner on Saturday night, at the 3rd annual BarCampBrigton on the 6th and 7th of September.

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SIP Stack for Mobile Devices Released

Vodafone R&D and “Instrumentación y Componentes (Inycom)”, an Aragon-based Technological company have just released a SIP Stack for mobile devices which performs for you the 3GPP procedures for registering, instant messaging and other services, read more here. It exposes the IMS functionality by a high level API, hiding the technology complexity and enabling you to develop 3rd party IMS applications in an easy way. You can either view the project page on Betavine or the actual developer project over at the Forge.

Betavine 2.0 goes live!

We've just released version 2.0 of betavine.net. In December we decided to re-write the whole platform using standard open source components. This gives us greater flexibility, allowing us to develop new site features for you to use.

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Campus Life Competition Announcement

The Vodafone UK Student Campus Life competition has now come to a close. The 3 winners have been announced.

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Nokia WidSets Competition Announcement

The Nokia Student WidSets competition has now come to a close. The Widsets team have announced the three lucky winners with more details on our site.

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Betavine now linked to Vodafone Live! Spain

We are pleased to announce the first of a series steps we are taking to help promote Betavine apps to a wider audience. As of lunchtime today, there is now a link to betavine.mobi in the Applications area on Vodafone Live! in Spain. This is a fantastic opportunity that opens up Betavine to over 16 million mobile users! If this proves popular we hope to link with other countries in the near future.

The homepage displayed to users accessing the site from Vodafone Live! contains a set of 'Featured Applications'. If you would like to showcase your application via this channel, please email webmaster@betavine.net.

Betavine Hosts Vodafone Apps

Vodafone Global are launching a suite of applications that work on a range of phones. Due to the way apps are hosted, and our inbuilt feedback and deployment system they have chosen Betavine to partner with.

Why not have a look at some of the apps!

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Forums

nigel
nigel
Admob
Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header?
Dear Brian et. al,

I know this has been repeated and talked about passionately in other threads. But all discussions inadvertantly gets deflected to a discussion about W3C standards, which is non-existent and beside the point. As a developer who has years of experience developing mobile content, I've seen a lot of interference (or screw-ups) by carriers. But none is so bad as to changing the mobile phone's User-Agent. So I would like to ask a question, point blank:

What is the rationale behind changing the User-Agent header?

Please do not mention W3C because the standard does not exist. Vodafone is the one doing it, so please answer as Vodafone. Don't act as if a standard already exists.

I do understand and actually somewhat appreciate your efforts to automatically transcode desktop websites, if what you say about increasing mobile web usage is true. The more people that are used to browsing on the phone, the better for the ecosystem as a whole.

You already provide publishers a way to tell the WTE not to transcode, some are based on standards (mobile web sites should send the proper Content-Type and DOCTYPE anyways). I do applaud the effort.

I am trying to think from your standpoint here. The one thing that I do not understand, is why you have to change the User-Agent. I would like you to also think from the standpoint of mobile website publishers.

Sites that are desktop-only will serve largely the same desktop content, no matter what the incoming User-Agent is. These sites can be transcoded by the WTE. These site owners may have no problem having their site transcoded, because by definition, they don't care to adapt their content to mobile devices. Even if they do detect the User-Agent for desktop browser capabilities, they probably don't care too much about browsers that are not PC or mainstream. In this case, what's the point of faking as a different User-Agent, as sending the phone's User-Agent will largely yield the same result?

Sites that adapt their content to mobile phones rely on the User-Agent to identify the incoming device. Adapting their content to specific devices are their bread and butter. By faking as a desktop PC, Vodafone is effectively fooling these sites, telling them to return desktop/non-adapted content, and have WTE ruin their carefully engineered and crafted markup and user interface specifically targeted to various mobile phones. Some of these pages may contain carefully placed ads, so money and revenue for these sites are at stake. Is there any wonder that you are incurring the wrath of all these mobile publishers? In this case, it is of course better off for everyone involved if you just leave the User-Agent alone.

So it seems to me that changing the User-Agent is pointless and harmful, from a technical standpoint. Telling us to read from a different header is completely beside the point. (Besides it is not a standard!) It just creates unnecessary inconveniences for mobile content publishers that should not be there in the first place.

Unless, well, you create the inconvenience for reasons other than a technical one. I won't go down that path just yet, and I want to hear what you have to say.

So, tell us, what is the rationale behind changing the User-Agent header?
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luca
luca
Admob.com
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to nigel

Brian, they want you to come here and sing your song about how wonderful this amazing new vodafone adapting technology is once again.

Luca
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spuggy
spuggy
bluetrail
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to luca
Hi

Just for the record and to log the point that this is causing pain - the content adaption did screw up our download provsioning and caused client phone calls.

Guess we should be on the ball and monitoring the blogsphere more :-)

I can't imagine another part of the IT industry where this could happen.

Richard Spence
Bluetrail
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mrbgturner
mrbgturner
Vodafone
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to nigel
Hi Nigel

I do take on your points here and thanks for your time in writing your detailed blog. You wanted a direct answer.

Vodafone is offering a PC experience to customers.

The desktop user agent string is sent primarily to get desktop internet content vs. mobile pages, not to get desktop content vs. nothing at all.

Well known desktop sites offer mobile versions because they know that most phones can’t handle their full site.

But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.

We cannot guarantee content return by sending the mobile user agent. I do accept your point that many sites will return the content. Some will not and this is the topic of the W3C group on "blocking sites".

You mentioned that you didn't like the discussion being diverted to standards but that is the way the mobile industry works.

Future standards and recommendations are needed not just on this point but on Content Adaptation as an industry. There are many issues from user agent to content control to new business models.

The topic of "Mobile User agent use" is not "closed" by Vodafone by the way.

We are having a lengthy debate on just one topic.

Vodafone will be listening to the recommendations in this area. If the recommendations consider different usage of the mobile user agent we will consider those but they have to make sense in this new world of html and wml content.

I have stated many times that this area is not exclusive to Vodafone and over the next six months you will see more activity from others.

We have heard the strong views expressed on this site. That is the point of the site, to allow a constructive voice to be heard and consider them.


BR
Brian
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luca
luca
Admob.com
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
mrbgturner:

Well known desktop sites offer mobile versions because they know that most phones can’t handle their full site.

But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.


not true. You know better than me that adapted web sites deliver a poor user experience on feature phones.

mrbgturner:

We cannot guarantee content return by sending the mobile user agent.


...so vodafone prefers to cheat to get content which the original content author did not mean to be served that way. Not very ethical, is it?

mrbgturner:

You mentioned that you didn't like the discussion being diverted to standards but that is the way the mobile industry works.


What are you talking about? Vodafone is blatantly ignoring standards, just because it is in the position to do so technically. Are you expecting us to buy this story? you can't be serious!

mrbgturner:

I have stated many times that this area is not exclusive to Vodafone and over the next six months you will see more activity from others.


In this case, developers will be there to tell them to stop "polluting" the ecosystem.

mrbgturner:

We have heard the strong views expressed on this site. That is the point of the site, to allow a constructive voice to be heard and consider them.


well, all the voices say the same thing. Leave the user-agent string alone. So if you wanted to hear a voice, now that you have heard it, you can only do one thing: stop messing with basic mechanisms of the mobile Internet.

Luca

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jalberto
jalberto
Cellectivity
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
Vodafone is offering a PC experience to customers.

So what you are saying is that Vodafone users will not be allowed to download music, video or mobile games from sites that have not been expressly white listed by Vodafone. As that is what the users will confront if accessing such sites from their PCs.

I presume that you understand that when a user pays real money for a game to download to their mobile, they actually want a version of the game that works on his/hers mobile and not the PC version.

Will Vodafone accept the liability for people paying for incorrect content for their devices? Shall vendors advice their customers to ask Vodafone to refund any moneys that were spent on incorrect content? Certainly it is not the vendor's fault as it is Vodafone the one interfering with a lawful commercial transaction based on the accepted standards and protocols of the Internet.
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miha
miha
Mobitel
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
mrbgturner:

The desktop user agent string is sent primarily to get desktop internet content vs. mobile pages, not to get desktop content vs. nothing at all.

Well known desktop sites offer mobile versions because they know that most phones can’t handle their full site.

But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.

We cannot guarantee content return by sending the mobile user agent.


Brian, I gave several recommendations to achieve same if not better experience on the "I want my UA back" thread, and I got no replies to that. I will restate some of them here:

* the way I understand, you want to deliver "desktop web" to your *mobile* user, regardless of what the site OWNER wants to deliver?

* you can not guarantee content return from mobile UA? Well, you can try, and if it fails, you can ask for it again with the WEB UA.

* you could employ logic in your WTE, that if users "mark" the site as mobile-aware, you could let the mobile UA through for ALL FUTURE requests, i.e. and have a self adapting technique.

* and, of course, as others mention, you intentioanlly brake all unlisted content download (ringtones, wallpapers...) mobile-aware sites.

Regards,
Miha.
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jalberto
jalberto
Cellectivity
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.

I do not want to be throwing conspiracies around. But given the fact that users are paying per kbytes, it seems to me it is much more profitable for Vodafone to force users to receive a 200KB WEB page than a 20KB WAP page.

That wouldn't be the reason behind forcing WTE no matter what? Or is it?

So do this phones support FLASH, PDF and all the other content types supported by the PC browsers? Can I run applets and all the other embeded windows objects on them?

What kind of experience do I get on such sites?
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atrasatti
atrasatti
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
mrbgturner:

Vodafone is offering a PC experience to customers.

The desktop user agent string is sent primarily to get desktop internet content vs. mobile pages, not to get desktop content vs. nothing at all.

Well known desktop sites offer mobile versions because they know that most phones can’t handle their full site.

But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.

We cannot guarantee content return by sending the mobile user agent.


Sorry Brian,
but I think this is not the right reason for hiding the user-agent string.
In my opinion the content owner knows best what he wants to serve to mobile users and he shouuld be on the driving seat. If you apply as a rule what you just wrote you're actually making a choice on behalf of the user and of the content owner.

Sites that do adaptation are spending money to change the content to fit the mobile browser and spending more money in user interfaces and making sure that the approptiate content is served to users on the move. Mobile users will often have different needs from desktop users. It is correct to say that the "web technology" is the same, it is still HTTP and XHTML, but what you serve is different.
Take a look at the desktop site of Alitalia and then look at the mobile version. Don't you agree that the mobile version is providing the type of content that you would need while sitting in cab to the airport and the standard version is the one that you would need while at home planning your holidays? These two sites provide a different URL so users are allowed to make their choice based on the URL, but with device detection and content adaptation site owners can take advantage of a simple name that users can remember and always use the same and access the appropriate content based on the context (mobile or desktop). Want to call this "branding"?

Access Google Reader with your desktop browser, then access it with Opera mini on your phone and then access it with the browser that is pre-installed on your mobile (always without the help of WTE, of course). The first two will provide the same interface, on the desktop PC is very usable, on Opera-mini is un-usable. The last one will provide a different experience with the same content and will be optimized for your browser and your hardware and this means to your context: you're on the move, don't have a pointing device (in most case) most likely want to read the latest news, if this is the case (and it is for most mobile users).

- Andrea
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nigel
nigel
Admob
RE: Rationale behind changing the User-Agent header? as a reply to mrbgturner
Again. My point is, please leave the User-Agent header alone. I'm going to rebuke what you said point for point.

mrbgturner:
Vodafone is offering a PC experience to customers.


I don't dispute that. You want to transcode sites that are written for the desktop? That's fine with me. I have things to say about the user experience of transcoded sites, but that's another topic. But please don't do it at the peril of all the site owners that tailor their content to phones, and don't do it in a way that you are breaking standards and mess with existing practices.

mrbgturner:
The desktop user agent string is sent primarily to get desktop internet content vs. mobile pages, not to get desktop content vs. nothing at all.


I don't think you understand my argument laid out in my initial post. Plus, what do you mean by "nothing at all"? As a solution laid out by someone here (I think it's jalberto). The HTTP protocol actually does have a suitable mechanism for an resource/origin server/site to tell the HTTP client that the request can't be met. It's the 406 HTTP code. You send the original User-Agent header, if the site can't handle it, it sends 406. Then you make another request on behalf of the phone with the PC user agent header.

mrbgturner:
Well known desktop sites offer mobile versions because they know that most phones can’t handle their full site.


That's exactly the point, and you are arguing against yourself. But without sending the sites the original User-Agent, how would a site know to return mobile content?

mrbgturner:
But with the WTE, all of these (WAP2.0) phones now can access their full site.


So now you are arguing that you can do a better job transcoding their desktop site, than their carefully crafted mobile site specifically designed for mobile devices?

mrbgturner:
We cannot guarantee content return by sending the mobile user agent. I do accept your point that many sites will return the content. Some will not and this is the topic of the W3C group on "blocking sites".

You mentioned that you didn't like the discussion being diverted to standards but that is the way the mobile industry works.

Future standards and recommendations are needed not just on this point but on Content Adaptation as an industry. There are many issues from user agent to content control to new business models.

The topic of "Mobile User agent use" is not "closed" by Vodafone by the way.


I've said, don't mention W3C. And here you go again. I say again: what you are ALREADY DOING is not standards-compliant. This is like stabbing someone while you are part of the legislature, and at the same time you are trying to make stabbing someone legal. :)

mrbgturner:
Vodafone will be listening to the recommendations in this area. If the recommendations consider different usage of the mobile user agent we will consider those but they have to make sense in this new world of html and wml content.


From the response I get, I don't think you are really listening. Or perhaps, not really understanding?

mrbgturner:
I have stated many times that this area is not exclusive to Vodafone and over the next six months you will see more activity from others.


You don't have to wait six months. You are seeing activities now already, from mobile site publishers.

mrbgturner:
We have heard the strong views expressed on this site. That is the point of the site, to allow a constructive voice to be heard and consider them.


There you have it. So please give us back the User-Agent.
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